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bissie, Oct 19 at 9:19 PM EDT   

BIS and the new DL system

Dear Members of eMusic.

Changes are coming - also to BIS here on eMusic.

As you will see, BIS will from Nov 1 be serviced directly by Naxos rather than IODA. They have managed to do this without taking down the catalogue and re-uploading it, so it should mean no direct changes in the availability or possibilities to get faulty tracks repaired, retaining customer reviews etc.

But on to more important things, and sorry if I get a bit long-winded here. This concerns track downloads, album prices, all that of which the chat pages have been full lately. Unfortunately it is no longer technically or financially possible to be outside of the system in some cases, please see below.

There are for each album two possibilities for me: either stay as was or go into the new system, which means that any album with a track over 10 minutes gets bundled and is album-only. OTOH, the max credits used for any such album is 12.

I have tried to go through all almost 1'500 albums and tried to choose what is the best option for you customers (more later) with one important exception: copyrights.
Earlier, we producers actually got paid more than 1 credit for the long tracks, an excellent system, whereby we would get some compensation for the often crippling copyright costs - in the US Harry Fox Agency charges equally much for downloads as for physical products, and that is 5,25 cents for a work or 1,85 cents per minute, whatever is more (those are the figures I remember, perhaps it is even more now).

Since one credit nowadays brings me only a couple of dimes, you can easily see what happens, if you download, say, a Shostakovich symphony with tracks between 13 and 29 minutes (one of the top sellers on the BIS label). After copyrights and artists' royalties I pay through my nose for the pleasure of selling it. Often a whooping loss. So, since after July 1, we don't get more than 1 credit per track regardless of the track's length, this is obviously not a way to go about business - for copyrighted tracks of some length.

So, we may divide the CD:s in different categories, and here's what I have done:

1) Any CD with a track number bigger than 12 and no track over 10 minutes:
Single-track DL available. Album cap at 12. You win.

2) Any CD with a track number bigger than 12, but with track(s) over 10 minutes, no copyright:
Normally (see below) single-track DL available. No album cap. As before, but see below.

3) CD with lower track number than 12, with or without 10+ minute tracks, no copyright:
Single-track DL available. No album pricing (meaning album less than 12 credits) I.e. Mahler 9 = 4 credits. As before.

4) CD with lower track number than 12, without 10+ minute tracks, copyright:
Single-track DL available. No album pricing. As before.

5) CD with 10+ minute tracks, copyright:
No single-track DL available. Album pricing 12 tracks (the new system). I get compensated.

Those are the easy ones.

Then, what do I do about the case 2 above? No copyright, more than 12 tracks, but at least one of them 10+ minutes. Here I have to weigh the different interests: the possibility to DL single tracks OR getting the album cap at 12 credits. Both aren't available, very unfortunately. Here I have been forced to second-guess you.
I can change, so if there is a really bad choice, please react, but usually, where there are very many tracks, but one of them 10+ minutes, I have opted for the album cap = 12 credits, whereas, if the track number doesn't exceed about 14-15, I have opted for the possibility of single-track DL, which means that the complete album is slightly more expensive than if I had capped it.

I hope that not too many will be disappointed with these choices. I believe that, on an average, with very few exceptions, this will work out to your advantage, since a LOT of albums belong to 1) above, for instance, basically all the Bach Cantatas. That was, anyway, my aim. Believe me, I would much rather have remained within the old system, but that choice wasn't left open to me, without crippling copyright costs.

Best - Robert

  Topic Outline
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by CCRGMac on Oct 19 at 9:41 PM EDT
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by mommio on Oct 19 at 10:39 PM EDT
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by bissie on Oct 20 at 1:14 AM EDT
  * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by frogkopf on Oct 20 at 1:14 PM EDT
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by Nereffid on Oct 20 at 5:08 AM EDT
  * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by dan'schic on Oct 20 at 1:22 PM EDT
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by Music Lover on Oct 20 at 9:00 AM EDT
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by kirkmc1 on Oct 20 at 9:45 AM EDT
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by JFLL on Oct 20 at 10:02 AM EDT
  * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by frogkopf on Oct 20 at 1:17 PM EDT
    * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by JFLL on Oct 20 at 1:27 PM EDT
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by Norcalmusicguy on Oct 20 at 1:06 PM EDT
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by garzamayer on Oct 20 at 2:42 PM EDT
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by DanielEsq on Oct 20 at 3:41 PM EDT
  * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by Nereffid on Oct 21 at 4:15 AM EDT
    * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by DanielEsq on Oct 22 at 4:13 PM EDT
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by Habanera on Oct 20 at 5:26 PM EDT
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by brighternow on Oct 21 at 8:30 AM EDT
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by Bad-Thoughts on Oct 22 at 2:35 PM EDT
  * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by bissie on Oct 22 at 9:15 PM EDT
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by Economist on Oct 23 at 7:32 AM EDT
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by Rmichie on Nov 3 at 6:48 PM EST
* RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by JFLL on Nov 3 at 6:56 PM EST
  * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by bissie on Nov 3 at 11:28 PM EST
    * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by Nereffid on Nov 4 at 4:20 AM EST
    * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by JFLL on Nov 4 at 5:02 AM EST
      * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by jim.hurley on Nov 4 at 5:19 AM EST
        * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by bissie on Nov 4 at 8:06 AM EST
          * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by Jophan on Nov 4 at 10:34 AM EST
            * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by sean.fennessey on Nov 4 at 10:48 AM EST
              * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by GrahamH on Nov 4 at 11:07 AM EST
                * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by sean.fennessey on Nov 4 at 11:56 AM EST
                  * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by GrahamH on Nov 4 at 12:26 PM EST
              * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by JFLL on Nov 4 at 1:09 PM EST
              * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by JFLL on Nov 5 at 4:26 AM EST
          * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by GrahamH on Nov 4 at 11:02 AM EST
          * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by Bad-Thoughts on Nov 4 at 11:17 AM EST
            * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by jim.hurley on Nov 4 at 11:41 AM EST
            * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by Nereffid on Nov 4 at 3:12 PM EST
              * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by JNP on Nov 4 at 10:35 PM EST
                * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by bissie on Nov 4 at 11:23 PM EST
                  * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by JNP on Nov 5 at 1:28 AM EST
                    * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by bissie on Nov 5 at 5:51 AM EST
              * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by Bad-Thoughts on Nov 5 at 1:42 PM EST
                * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by beachdog67[club2000] on Nov 5 at 6:54 PM EST
          * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by berryb on Nov 4 at 11:51 AM EST
          * RE: BIS and the new DL system posted by kargatron on Nov 4 at 12:40 PM EST
  CCRGMac Oct 19 at 9:41 PM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
Robert, once again you shown yourself to be customer-focused and an excellent communicator.

  mommio Oct 19 at 10:39 PM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
I appreciate your desire to give us a break. My response? I think you need to ensure that you aren't on the losing end of this proposition. This is your business, and we are buying the product. I will continue to download BIS albums no matter which way you go.
  bissie Oct 20 at 1:14 AM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
That depends upon what you mean by "losing" end. I have safeguarded that we don't pay more than we get, in the case of copyrights, but, other than that, I really like when the music and artistry we have worked so hard to present in the best possible recordings, are enjoyed by as many as possible.
If that gives us the wherewithall to continue to discover more Kalevi Aho:s, that's only icing on the cake.

Robert
  Nereffid Oct 20 at 5:08 AM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
Robert,
That is by far the single most intelligent, honest, cogent, and customer-friendly post anyone has made on the "new eMusic". Thank you.
  Music Lover Oct 20 at 9:00 AM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
Robert,

Thanks so much for taking the time to honestly inform us of the changes and the choices behind them. This is just another reason why so many of us back you and your label 100%. Even though you are doing a great cultural service in producing your product, you also understand your relationship to your customer.

Once again, you and your organization show total class, and it is certainly appreciated!
  kirkmc1 Oct 20 at 9:45 AM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
Thank you, Robert, for the clearest explanation of how this whole thing works. It's a shame eMusic themselves couldn't explain it this well.

I think there are two things to consider: many people want to buy single tracks, and many others only want to buy albums. (Though there's actually a third problem: when we don't have enough credits, and want to buy part of an album-only album, we can't...) For classical music, I generally buy either albums or works. And that's probably what would be needed (but would be too complicated): a "work" download system, maybe 4 credits or so, depending on the work, unless there are long tracks. (Similar to what iTunes does for some classical albums.)

In any case, the 12-download cap is probably the best for classical music; there are a number of your albums I haven't gotten because of the number of tracks.

The only thing that worries me is that eMusic will soon be selling album credits, rather than "download" credits. As more labels go to the 12-download-per-album system, we'll get three albums a month, instead of individual credits.
  JFLL Oct 20 at 10:02 AM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
I can't add anything to what Nereffid said about how much we appreciate the thought and care which you put into customer relations, Robert, and your proposals seem very fair to me.

One thing puzzles me, though, and that is the reference to "album-capping". As you may know, European customers, and some other non-US customers as well, I think, haven't so far had the benefit of this at all, although we still have to buy the whole album for any track which is over ten minutes. Is the new system with album-capping going to apply to European customers as well, do you know?

This is quite important for us Europeans, as I'm sure you appreciate. I for one almost packed Emusic in this month because of album-pricing. In fact I did, but then got offered a month's free downloads, so I relented at the last minute.
  Norcalmusicguy Oct 20 at 1:06 PM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
Pretty awesome, though now I'm somewhat wishing I hadn't already downloaded all 45 volumes of Bach Cantatas!!!
  frogkopf Oct 20 at 1:14 PM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
Hey bissie,

Do you want to do us a favor and take charge of Wall Street? They need some of your common sense and decency....
  frogkopf Oct 20 at 1:17 PM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by JFLL
JFLL

eMu has stated several times that album pricing/capping is in the works for the rest of the world. They had some hurdles to clear but were hoping for the end of the year.

In the meantime, get those albums with few tracks that have album only tracks. They will certainly cost 12 credits once the pricing scheme kicks in for you.
  dan'schic Oct 20 at 1:22 PM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by Nereffid
That is by far the single most intelligent, honest, cogent, and customer-friendly post anyone has made on the "new eMusic". Thank you.


I couldn't say it better myself!
  JFLL Oct 20 at 1:27 PM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by frogkopf
"eMu has stated several times that album pricing/capping is in the works for the rest of the world. They had some hurdles to clear but were hoping for the end of the year."

Thanks, frogkopf, I hadn't heard the end of the year mentioned, and I wondered whether Bissie had some inside information. Since Emusic Europe doesn't communicate with us, we're left to learn these things by hearsay.
  garzamayer Oct 20 at 2:42 PM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
thanks for taking the time to inform us
  DanielEsq Oct 20 at 3:41 PM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
Thanks, Robert. You are a gentleman.

I'm just finishing a trial, so it will take some time to digest the significance of the beginning message. But, as Mommio said, you should make a fair return for allowing eMusic subscribers to download BIS works. I was surprised to read that "(a)fter copyrights and artists' royalties I pay through my nose for the pleasure of selling it. Often a whooping loss." Obviously, that isn't fair to you.

In any event, I look forward to the new policy. The selfish part of me hopes that this disc -- Haydn: Complete Music for Solo Keyboard -- which I've had my eye on for some time, comes down for the 234 Credit price. But as I say, I'm just being selfish.
  Habanera Oct 20 at 5:26 PM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
Thanks so much for your honesty and caring, as usual. I will download BIS over any other label whenever possible and it is with gratitude for that you have made so much music available to us without always expecting to make money. I appreciate very much the lengthy explanation as to how the compensation works, it helps to understand why some changes were made. We are still getting a good deal here, and I want you and eMusic to thrive. Thanks again!
  Nereffid Oct 21 at 4:15 AM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by DanielEsq
@DanielEsq: the complete Haydn keyboard music is available on CD as 15 CDs for the price of 3. Yes, 3. Probably cheaper on CD than on eMusic for most subscribers.
  brighternow Oct 21 at 8:30 AM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
I can't ad much to what already has been stated here, but it is immensely pleasing that there's passion driven companies like Bis out there.
  Bad-Thoughts Oct 22 at 2:35 PM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
Thank you for being thoughtful about how to approach pricing. Obviously, it has been difficult for some subscribers who find that their dls don't stretch as far as they did before, or that they no longer had the freedom the pick and choose.

I would like to know, however, how pricing will work for albums with 2 or more "discs", especially those works whose movements are unusually long, thus do no fit comfortably on the average CD.
  DanielEsq Oct 22 at 4:13 PM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by Nereffid
Wow!
  bissie Oct 22 at 9:15 PM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by Bad-Thoughts
The same principle would apply on multi-sets as on single discs. Numbers of track resp. copyright or not in each disc would decide.

Robert
  Economist Oct 23 at 7:32 AM EDT RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
Many thanks for the clearest explanation out there. I am sure that most will agree with me in supporting your position.

By the way, you have done Emusic a great favor by explaining this for them.
  Rmichie Nov 3 at 6:48 PM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
It is great that BIS albums previously downloaded have remained in our download history (compare to Ondine, where they disappeared.) Robert, many thanks.
  JFLL Nov 3 at 6:56 PM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in direct response to the topic by bissie
In the light of Bissie's statement that

“Any CD with a track number bigger than 12 and no track over 10 minutes:
Single-track DL available. Album cap at 12. You win.”

I asked: “Is the new system with album-capping going to apply to European customers as well ...?”

I can now answer my own question. It’s now clear, unfortunately, that album-capping still does not apply to BIS recordings in Europe – the latest Bach Suzuki album is 27 tracks, 27 credits. So again we lose out in Europe, because BIS is now, from our point of view, like any other label with “album-only” downloads. What a pity.
  bissie Nov 3 at 11:28 PM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by JFLL
I have to agree. Just now I wrote a mail to my contact, before seeing the chatboard, I hasten to add, about that very thing.
I have gone public that the Bach 44 (among a huge number of other releases) should be capped at 12 credits. I am very disappointed that that hasn't happened now that Naxos have taken us over as our provider to eMusic. Sure, it is only a couple of days, but I was under the impression that the change should coincide timewise with the change-over. And be world-wide. Those were my demands.

I normally get very speedy answers, and I'll keep you posted.

A bewildered and disappointed Robert
  Nereffid Nov 4 at 4:20 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
Robert-
Not sure if you're aware of this, but there is NO album capping on eMusic Europe. It was always my understanding that this is eMusic policy rather than any label/distributor decision.
  JFLL Nov 4 at 5:02 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
Thank you, Robert – I felt sure, knowing your views, that you would have preferred your carefully thought-out pricing structure to be effective everywhere. Unfortunately, as Nereffid implies, Emusic doesn’t work like that these days. Emusic Europe/UK is a completely different animal from the US one as far as pricing goes, and I think there are other variations in other parts of the world. Since Emusic Europe seems to be run by people even more faceless than the parent company in the US, we have never had a word of explanation about the different pricing structure, which many of us feel is distinctly disadvantageous to Europeans because of the lack of album-capping, particularly classical fans. And if past experience is anything to go by, we will log on to find out, without any prior warning, that it has all been changed with the introduction of Sony.

I wish you luck in your approach to Emusic about this, and hope you get more consideration than European users are accustomed to.
  jim.hurley Nov 4 at 5:19 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by JFLL
Upon learning that BIS was among the labels not subscribing to the download restrictions so widely implemented last summer, I carefully looked through their entire emusic catalogue, placing in SFL many (!) albums with tracks exceeding 10 minutes.

I now find that ALL of the 10+ minute tracks on those albums are 'album only' downloads -- apparently they all fall into category 5 of BIS's new download policy as explained by Robert. My bad luck, I suppose, but I do have to wonder, given that this happened without a single exception, whether the new BIS policy has been implemented as Robert intended (over and above the album-capping issue, where something has clearly gone wrong), or the copyright/non-copyright question which determines the album-only designation is in fact a distinction without a difference -- that is to say, that virtually all of this material is copyrighted so that the album-only restriction on longer tracks will, practically speaking, apply across the board.

I certainly hope that this is a problem in implementation, although I suspect not. Perhaps Robert could clarify.

(Incidentally, and a bit off-topic: I set aside these albums as SFL for the reason that emusic's classical music customers have typically done this: it's nice to have, in this genre of music where the 'long form' predominates, substantial single-track pieces available when at the end of the month the customer has only one or two tracks remaining from his/her monthly allotment.

And I, like many others, also did this because one of the appeals of emusic was the possibility of selectivity -- of not being trapped into having to buy an entire CD when, for whatever reason, some of the music it contained wasn't of interest to the customer. So, for example, I'd been looking forward to hearing Achatz and Nagai's treatment of Ravel's 'Bolero' -- a piece whose very design would seem to resist reduction to just two pianos -- but wasn't particularly excited by the prospect of their 'Ma Mere L'Oye,' which I already have in a couple of versions, including the superb recording by Pletnev and Argerich. It was said many times when the new policy went into effect, but it bears repeating: these download restrictions go directly against what once made emusic uniquely attractive, and are moreover particularly inappropriate for the customer primarily interested in classical music.)

A final note: to my dismay and disappointment I find that not only BIS but Haenssler has changed to the album-only policy (but in Haenssler's case, there was no head's up to customers -- at least not that I saw, and I try to pay attention).

This is really discouraging. BIS and Haenssler are to my mind the best of the smaller classical labels out there -- and BIS is at this time probably just the best classical label, full stop. These new policies will have the effect of reducing customers' access to their product, with the result that everyone will lose. Because, you know, if I'd been sufficiently impressed by the Achatz-Nagai 'Bolero,' I might have gone on to download the rest of the album, despite the seeming redundancy of yet another version of 'Ma Mere L'Oye.' It's not as though that's a bad piece of music...
  bissie Nov 4 at 8:06 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by jim.hurley
Dear Jim,

thank you for your long and informative post.
Since I couldn't understand what's happened to you, I went into my "Most Downloaded" chart.
For me, there is no album cap at all, nor is there any "album only" rule. And copyright/non-copyright doesn't make a difference.

I.e. Mahler 9 is 4 credits, each track downloadable separately.
Schosty 4th is 3 credits (ouch!!), each of the three tracks downloadable separately.

On the other hand, Bach 44 is 27 credits (again ouch!).

In other words, I can see no change of any kind, and that's why I wrote to Katie Classicgal.

But, of course, I live in cold Sweden, and mayhaps the US version of eMus (which I cannot access) is different.

So, a few specific questions to clarify for me:

1) Can you DL Mahler 9, 1st movement, separately? You should be able to!
2) Can you DL Mahler 9, full CD, for 4 credits? Again, you should be able to.
3) Can you DL the full Bach 44 for 12 credits (not 27)? You should.
4) Can you DL the Shosty 4th for 12 credits (not 3)? You should.

Pls tell me, so that I have something to work from.

Best - Robert
  Jophan Nov 4 at 10:34 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
Robert, I'm sitting just a few score miles north of you, looking at the eMusic Europe pages, and even I cannot download any of the Mahler separately. It's all or nothing.
  sean.fennessey Nov 4 at 10:48 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by Jophan
Hey all, just want to let interested parties know that we're working hard to bring album pricing to all territories as fast as possible. Thanks for your patience. And thanks, as always, to Robert for being so engaged on the board.
  GrahamH Nov 4 at 11:02 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
Dear Robert,

Hope you and Jim won't mind me butting in here, but I'm getting confused about when posters are speaking about their US experience and when we're talking about somewhere/anywhere else. Anyway, FWIW my experience here in the UK is:

1) No - all tracks album only.
2) Yes.
3) No, 27 credits.
4) No, I can download this for 3 credits.

So it seems the album only element is the one thing that has changed here.

Hope this is of some use.

Graham.
  GrahamH Nov 4 at 11:07 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by sean.fennessey
In light of our experience over the past few months this strikes me as a bit disingenuous.

Presumably along with 'bringing album pricing to all territories as fast as possible' we can also look forward to decreased download limits, as in the US, but somehow that's not mentioned.
  Bad-Thoughts Nov 4 at 11:17 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
Dear Robert,
I sympathize with Jim. With the new price scheme, a large part of the BIS catalog has increased 400% in price (from one-tenth to one-half a basic subscription), affecting many of its most visible releases (notably modern and contemporary symphonic works, like those by Aho). From that perspective, public domain versus copyright seems superfluous, being of no benefit to fans of modern music. Neither I nor Jim, I would suspect, would want you to lose money, though.

Album pricing, however, brings further burdens by conforming the physicality of the CD on the digital environment. When you announced the change, I picked up a few tracks that I suspected would be assigned album pricing. I came across this album by Leifs, which in the physical world covers two discs. However, the work is only ninety minutes long. 13 credits would probably be a good price, but the extra ten minutes brings the total cost to 24. Moreover, album pricing simply prevents one from taking tracks a la carte, and it necessitates purchasing the entire album--that's a particularly unattractive prospect when one cannot hear at least a whole track, just preview a snippet, before committing to the whole. Put simply, album pricing locks the music into a format that is meaningless in a digital environment.

Album pricing seems inflexible, for both consumer and distributor. There are, however, creative solutions, such as the distribution of tracks on this Soundways' collection.
  jim.hurley Nov 4 at 11:41 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by Bad-Thoughts
Hi Robert,

Although my spelling may mark me as an American (which is in fact the case: down with the teabaggers!), I live in The Netherlands and subscribe via emusic Europe, so the album cap doesn't apply in my case.

As for your questions about Mahler 9, I can download the entire album for 4 credits, but cannot download any track separately: all four (long) tracks are 'album only.'

I hope this info is helpful for you and that what we're seeing here is just a messy transition period -- at least regarding BIS (have no idea what will develop with Haenssler).

Thanks for your diligence on this matter. As I've suggested, I think your whole operation is first rate.
  berryb Nov 4 at 11:51 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
Canada here,

BIS now follows the Chandos pricing structure for us: anything longer than 10 minutes is album only, but we have no album capping, nor 12-dl price for albums with a few long tracks.

> 1) Can you DL Mahler 9, 1st movement, separately? You should be able to!
no - album only

> 2) Can you DL Mahler 9, full CD, for 4 credits? Again, you should be able to.
yes

> 3) Can you DL the full Bach 44 for 12 credits (not 27)? You should.
no - 27 dl's

> 4) Can you DL the Shosty 4th for 12 credits (not 3)? You should.
no - 3 dl's


My little example where the whole download structure really backfires for me/us: suppose I'm interested in a rarer piece that happened to be used as a filler on an album with more popular pieces (which might not always interest me as much). For instance, the Cassasione on this album would cost me 22 dls now. A bit of an exception but not entirely theoretical.

Cheers,

Berry
  sean.fennessey Nov 4 at 11:56 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by GrahamH
Hi all, here is a quick clarification of album pricing (which labels and distributors must opt into). Album pricing does two things: it caps the price of each disc to 12 credits (regardless of the number of tracks), and automatically makes the price of any album with at least one long track (10 minutes or longer) 12 credits. While this system may not make perfect sense for all recordings, note that any label can override this on a title by title basis if they so choose, a feature that Robert is taking advantage of. Yes, a full length symphonic recording with only 4 tracks will cost 12 credits – but a full length cantata recording with 50 tracks will also cost 12 credits. As most labels would argue, the pricing of a full length record should generally not solely be based on the number of tracks.

Additionally, album pricing allows labels to put their content on sale for any set of time, a feature that has so far been very successful on the US site. Again, we hope to expand album pricing to the EU, UK and Canada in early 2010.
  GrahamH Nov 4 at 12:26 PM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by sean.fennessey
None of which really answers my question, does it?
  kargatron Nov 4 at 12:40 PM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
bissie, doesn't appear you've gotten a US response yet. For US, all is as you request, except Mahler has all album-only tracks (the album is 4 credits though).
  JFLL Nov 4 at 1:09 PM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by sean.fennessey
"we're working hard to bring album pricing to all territories as fast as possible." (Emusic)

But in the meantime you've just removed one of the main advantages of BIS for Europeans (no album-only albums) but kept the disadvantages (no album-capping).

It didn't have to happen this way, did it?
  Nereffid Nov 4 at 3:12 PM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by Bad-Thoughts
Bad-Thoughts: "Put simply, album pricing locks the music into a format that is meaningless in a digital environment."

That's it exactly. When I complained about album-only downloads a while ago, customer service actually said this: "Perhaps the easiest way to understand multi-disc pricing is to think of it like buying a CD."
  JNP Nov 4 at 10:35 PM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by Nereffid
Dear Robert,

Like others, I appreciate your thorough and candid explanation of the pricing changes you’ve instituted. The executives at eMusic could learn a lot from you about customer service. Despite your sensitivity to the concerns of your customers, however, I’m displeased with the changes you’ve made.

Let’s consider how the changes have affected me: I currently have 49 BIS albums in my SFL. Of those 49 albums, 17 (or 35%) of the albums increased in price, while 5 (10%) of the albums decreased in price. The remaining 27 albums saw no price change. The total cost of all BIS music in my SFL increased from 675 to 763 credits, a 13% increase.

While that increase strikes me as high, the real problem is that of the 17 albums that increased in price, 12 of those increased by more than 33%, with 6 of those 12 increasing by 140% and 2 of them increasing by 300%! For an album -- let’s say Aho’s Fifth Symphony -- to go from 5 to 12 credits for less than an hour of music is a “rate adjustment” that would make credit card companies proud.

As Bad-Thoughts has already noted here, the burden of rate increases falls disproportionately on works by modern and contemporary composers. Indeed, of the 8 BIS albums in my SFL that increased 140% or more, 6 are by contemporary composers (the other 2 are by Sibelius and Shostakovich, who are not far removed from the contemporary scene). This is especially dismaying because it undermines the reputation of BIS as a label that gives serious attention to contemporary music.

I suppose I shop for music like most other eMusic customers: With fewer credits and higher subscription costs, I’m selective about what I download. With an album-only download, or a capped album that puts me at a disadvantage (e.g., Aho’s 5-track symphony for 12 credits), I’m always hesitant to take a chance and usually end up downloading something else that has better value or that I know I want. In my case, I know I want all the Aho I can get, but his albums are now a lousy value, so I won’t download them.

For another drawback of the new pricing structure, take Mark Wigglesworth’s performance of Shostakovich’s 8th symphony. Although I don’t especially love this piece and already own two other recordings of it, I would like to hear Wigglesworth’s performance. At 5 credits, I would have downloaded it eventually. At 12 credits, it not only represents a bad value but also enters into competition with other versions available on eMusic, many of which are now cheaper: Rostropovich (5 credits), Yoel Levi (5 credits), Bychkov (5 credits), Sanderling (12 credits), and Slatkin (12 credits). Wigglesworth doesn’t stand a chance.

So, Aho, Macmillan, and other relatively unknown composers on BIS will remain relatively unknown, while many more deserving performances will face neglect in a more competitive marketplace. That’s bad for young composers and musicians and, insofar as it contradicts the mission of BIS, bad for your label’s reputation.

Of course, I see all these changes as one more victory for eMusic’s Sony-era anti-customer customer model. Higher prices and greater controls on pricing and downloading discourage exploration, force us to limit our choices, and inevitably steer us towards safe bets and “deals.” Add to this the ridiculous assertion that the purchase of digital music is, or should be, akin to the purchase of CDs, and eMusic is an increasingly uninviting destination.

That BIS, one of the labels I’ve long most admired, now participates in this model is deeply disappointing.

-JNP
  bissie Nov 4 at 11:23 PM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by JNP
Dear JNP,

thank you for that lucid and well-wrought post.
May I anyway try to explain why this has been forced upon me?

But first a comment. In order to have "a peek", I totally agree, the 30-second snippets are not enough. I have countermanded this by allowing anyone to listen to 50% of any BIS track for free, but then you have to go to www.bis.se. That, I think, is fair, and you'll realize that I can only control my own websites.

Then about album pricing. Until now I wasn't aware that the principles are different in the US and abroad. In this answer I concentrate on the US situation, which seems to be as I want it, except that any 10+-minute track of uncopyrighted material should be downloadable singly.

So why do I want to get properly paid for copyrighted stuff (and here I ask forgiveness for the repetition, since I already explained it):

1) eMus has given up on the principle to pay MORE than 1 credit to the labels for the long tracks. Now it is strictly 1 credit/track. I cannot control ot influence this.
2) The US (as the only country in the world) has a copyright system that does NOT take consideration to how much you get paid for the sale of a copyrighted track. The copyright cost is a fixed fee, 5,25 cents per track or 1,85 cents per minute, whichever is more. This copyright cost applies, even if I give the track away - it is statutory. Had the US copyright costs been as in the rest of the world - a percentage of the selling price - we wouldn't be having this discussion. I cannot control or influence this.
3) Simple arithmetic, then, should tell anyone that there is a break-even point, where the copyright costs simply exceed what we labels get from eMusic (which by no means is the same as what you pay, since eMus wants something, and we have aggregators that also want to be paid for their work, whereas we labels alone have to pay the copyrights). I cannot control or influence this.
4) The placement of this break-even point is further exacerbated by the fact that we have to pay full royalties to the performing artists for the DL:s, and, in the end of the day, it would be nice to have a little something ourselves for OUR work.

Since eMus gave up on the previous system (paying more for long tracks), our hands really are tied, unless we want to lose on every DL on a multitude of tracks, and I'm afraid that the business climate today doesn't allow that.

So, for the ones that, like you, seem to be most interested in contemporary music, this new system is making the DL more expensive, in some cases wildly so, percentagewise. But you could also say less inexpensive, because, if you look at what you pay even now, it is still a far cry less than you'd pay for the corresponding album in any shop.
And, of course, for those primarily interested in olde musicke, the new system represents a huge saving - as it should.

And, finally, you'll at least be pleased to know that a very large proportion of what you pay is going to the actual composers and artists, and that - perhaps - makes the whole thing less unpalatable?

Very best - Robert
  JNP Nov 5 at 1:28 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
Dear Robert,

Thanks for your prompt response. I want to be clear that I fully understand the financial difficulties posed by royalties and US copyright statutes. I also understand that everyone needs to make money. I'm happy that a large portion of what I pay is going to composers and artists. I would be equally happy if an equally large portion went to you.

Frankly, I don't mind paying more for downloads, especially from BIS and other labels I like. My concerns have less to do with the prices themselves (although 140%-300% increases are very steep) than with the ways that new pricing policies will reshape how people shop on eMusic, ultimately constraining what customers choose to buy. Hence my points about Aho’s 5th being too expensive for people to take a chance on an “unknown” composer and Shostakovich’s 8th being too expensive in a crowded field.

Again, I understand this situation is not your fault. I believe you’ve made decisions with customers in mind, decisions that hopefully will also keep BIS economically viable. My chief complaint is with eMusic. Their new pricing policy seems destined to hurt BIS in the long run (for the reasons I’ve already mentioned) while helping the likes of Sony and other major labels that eMusic no doubt wants to attract. My disappointment is not with BIS but rather with ongoing changes at eMusic (and the financial pressures) that have forced you into this unenviable position.

-JNP
  JFLL Nov 5 at 4:26 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by sean.fennessey
Since Emusic, for once, seems to be in explanatory mode in this thread, perhaps Mr Fennessey could answer this question. Nereffid says that when he complained about album-only downloads a while ago, customer service said this: "Perhaps the easiest way to understand multi-disc pricing is to think of it like buying a CD." Many of us, of course, don’t see why buying digital music should be like buying a CD at all, but if Emusic really believes that, why is there no album price-capping IN EUROPE? A CD is not priced by the number of tracks, and yet still, under the system in place now, a Mahler symphony “costs” 4 credits, whereas an album of Bach cantatas costs 27 credits. Where on earth is the parallel with CD-pricing here?
  bissie Nov 5 at 5:51 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by JNP
And I thank you, JNP, for your extremely kind post.

Do forgive me, though, if I (as an old mathematician and lawyer) point out that a 300% price increase indeed is huge, percentagewise (I presume that you're referring to Shostakovich 4th, which went up from 3 credits to 12), but not so bad, money-wise, depending upon where you start. If you pay 50 cents per credit, we're talking a price increase of 4 dollars 50 cents, making a complete download of this magnificent music cost all of 6 Dollars, about a third of the going price for the corresponding disc. It aint that bad, after all, innit?

And, regarding Aho's 5th and similar works, I still believe that, with a simple click on www.bis.se and the free listening of 50% of that symphony should give you reason enough to "take a chance" - or not, as the case may be. I have done this (at not inconsiderable cost to us, I might add) precisely in order for people to have a chance to hear, whether the music is raising their interest, hackles or what not.

Yes, I am trying to be very customer-friendly. I am a customer myself, and I know how I want to be treated. We try to behave that way. Otherwise people behave as I do - I vote with my feet, wallet or whatever.

Yippeee! I now see the first snow falling down outside the office window. Not everything is bad, after all.

Best - Robert

  jim.hurley Nov 5 at 9:37 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
Hi Robert,

You've nicely clarified the BIS/emusic situation in the US, and I applaud your efforts to make things as fair as possible for everyone, given the narrowness of US copyright law.

But can you also address the situation for those of us outside the USA?

I see that the BIS albums in my SFL are still, without exception, 'album only' for 10+ minute tracks, and that doesn't seem to be the way you intended it.

best, Jim
  bissie Nov 5 at 11:03 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by jim.hurley
Dear Jim et al non-Americans,

I am trying to find out.

Robert
  Bad-Thoughts Nov 5 at 1:42 PM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by Nereffid
That's it exactly. When I complained about album-only downloads a while ago, customer service actually said this: "Perhaps the easiest way to understand multi-disc pricing is to think of it like buying a CD."


Ha! I remember that. I nodded in disbelief.

It does seem that CDs are the lawn jockeys of the internet: we're supposed to admire them, even though they've become archaic.
  beachdog67[club2000] Nov 5 at 6:54 PM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by Bad-Thoughts
Bad-Thoughts posits:
It does seem that CDs are the lawn jockeys of the internet: we're supposed to admire them, even though they've become archaic.
...my nomination for Exemplar of the Month.

Oh, and as so many others have said so well, thank you and bless you Robert for your continuing love of, and commitment to, the art, the artists, and the consumers. You are a breath of fresh air.


Woof~!
  DanielEsq Nov 5 at 8:35 PM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
"Do forgive me, though, if I (as an old mathematician and lawyer). . ."


__________________________________

I am jealous of your move from lawyer to head-of-a-music-label.
  bissie Nov 6 at 12:20 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
And now I have found out, as far as BIS is concerned.

For non-copyright tracks/albums:

The album-only bundling for long tracks will be taken away immediately (meaning soonest) everywhere in the world. This was a misunderstanding on eMus's part.
The album pricing will equal the number of tracks up to a cap of 12. This is already implemented in the US, and will come to Europe and elsewhere in mid-January 2010. I cannot influence this.

For copyrighted tracks/albums in the USA: if there are tracks of 10+ minutes, they'll be album-only, and the album will cost 12 credits. I have already given the reasons for that - if you want to influence this, please talk to Harry Fox Agency, who understand NOTHING of the condition of Classical music. Statutory rapes, sorry, rates are an insult to intelligence, and here we have the results.

For Europe, I am investigating the copyright situation with eMus. More later.

I have noticed that BIS has dropped considerably in the eMus charts. That worries me. Any takes on why???

Best - Robert


  mommio Nov 6 at 12:56 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
Why is BIS dropping in the charts? I am working my way through the BIS catalog. My 90 credits every 30 days is now reduced to 24 credits every 30 days. Big difference! Most of my recent downloads have been classical music, and most, but not all, have been BIS albums.

Quite a few of the regulars have cancelled accounts, and I do know that several of us have downgraded our subscriptions due to the increased cost. I suspect that many of the newcomers are interested in genres other than classical. That was my approach when I first came to eMusic, but I finally decided it was classical time. My focus in recent months has been almost entirely on classical music.

So many fine BIS albums still waiting for me. Wish I could afford more, but it will take some time to get all the ones I want.
  Nereffid Nov 6 at 5:03 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
It's always difficult to come up with a concrete explanation for anything on the eMusic charts. My first reaction was "well, maybe it has something to do with the fact that 3 of the top 10 classical albums are by Sufjan Stevens".
Until earlier in the year, I think the charts were somehow determined on the basis of single-track downloads but now they seem to be biased in favour of full-album downloads. This would tend, thanks to the new pricing scheme, to favour bargain albums, and probably means that albums where people would just download a single track (eg, experimenting with unfamiliar repertoire) don't do as well in the charts as they used to. I think.
So the charts probably are now more influenced by bargain offers. Chandos had a recent "albums for 9 credits" sale, and Past Classics has some very cheap reissues that people would gravitate towards. Notice that "The 100 Best of Classical Music" is high in the charts, thanks to it being available in the US for 12 credits, I believe.

But mommio's suggestion makes sense too. The price changes in July had the biggest effect on long-term subscribers, who tended to have larger accounts. And it's not unreasonable to suspect that they're the ones who'd be responsible for a lot of the "serious" classical downloading. So not only did prices as much as double for those subscribers, but also the number of downloads shrank. And a lot of old-timers quit, too. So I suspect BIS's core audience on eMusic is quite a bit smaller than it used to be, and the people who download classical music may now contain a much higher proportion of people who don't know the difference between Osmo Vanska and Alfred Scholz.
  DanielEsq Nov 6 at 5:10 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
Do you mean that BIS's eMusic sales have dropped in a relative sense (i.e., BIS' titles have dropped compared to other label's titles on the eMusic charts) or in an absolute sense (e.g., the total number of BIS albums/tracks being downloaded per month on eMusic has dropped)?
  bissie Nov 6 at 5:16 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by DanielEsq
Yes.

Best - Robert
  jim.hurley Nov 6 at 8:09 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
Dear Robert,

Looks like your wish is emusic's command -- the 'album only' muddle seems all cleared up.

Achatz and Nagai are wonderful, btw. BIS will have at least one small up-click on its emusic charts.

Thanks again for your efforts and have fun in the snow.

best, Jim

  amclark2 Nov 6 at 10:31 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
"I have noticed that BIS has dropped considerably in the eMus charts. That worries me. Any takes on why???"

This is what at least some of us were most worried about with the arrival of Sony and the increases in prices. Generally people have less downloads per month to experiment, and I think that a lot of people here were people who were not normally classical listeners and were approaching classical music as the next experiment. I know that was my thinking. Less downloads = more "conservative" = sticking with what you know = (for a lot of emu users) indie rock.

I do think that your brilliantly executed new download plan coupled with your presence on the boards will bring BIS back up, especially as the initial Sony excitement wanes.

On a semi-related note, have you considred participating with Amie Street? I would think the demand-based pricing would be a good fit, and it seems there are some effective ways to control pricing there. On the bottom end many labels skip free offerings and start out with a per-track price, and album only pricing seems to be available on a case by case basis, and on the top end album price-capping is available.
  Bad-Thoughts Nov 6 at 10:55 AM EST RE: BIS and the new DL system    
in response to the message by bissie
At least some decline should be attributed to surprise and confusion. Although you've addressed the price changes here with precision and thoughtfulness, it was only read by subscribers who come to this forum. There is a significant group of customers who come around a few days a month to use up their monthly credits, than disappear. Not seeing the prices they expected on BIS recordings, they skipped down their wish lists to something else.
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